The Three Knights Game is a chess opening which most commonly begins with the moves:
64-558: In the Three Knights Game, Black chooses to break symmetry in order to avoid the main lines of what is often considered the drawish Four Knights Game after the usual 3...Nf6. The relevant ECO code is C46. After tries such as 3...d6 or 3...Be7, White can play 4.d4, leaving Black with a cramped position resembling Philidor's Defense . If Black plays 3...Bc5 instead, White can eliminate Black's outpost at e5: 4.Nxe5 ! Nxe5 5.d4 Bd6 6.dxe5 Bxe5. Since tournament praxis shows
128-408: A book draw . (See queen versus pawn endgame .) Players sometimes make draw offers in consideration of outside factors. In 1977 Viktor Korchnoi and former World Champion Tigran Petrosian played a twelve-game quarter-final Candidates Match to ultimately determine the challenger for the 1978 World Championship . After eleven games, Korchnoi was leading by one point, so he only needed a draw in
192-544: A time control , there are other ways a draw can occur. In chess games played at the top level, a draw is the most common outcome of a game: of around 22,000 games published in The Week in Chess played between 1999 and 2002 by players with a FIDE Elo rating of 2500 or above, 55 percent were draws. According to chess analyst Jeff Sonas , although an upward draw rate trend can be observed in general master-level play since
256-406: A column for the website Chess Cafe , suggested that agreed draws should not be allowed at all, pointing out that such an agreement cannot be reached in other sports such as boxing . Although some have claimed that outlawing agreed draws entirely requires players to carry on playing in "dead" positions (where no side can reasonably play for a win), Dvoretsky says that this is a small problem and that
320-416: A draw at any time. Ethical considerations may make a draw uncustomary in situations where at least one player has a reasonable chance of winning. For example, a draw could be called after a move or two, but this would likely be thought unsporting. In the 19th century, some tournaments, notably London 1883 , required that drawn games be replayed; however, this was found to cause organizational problems due to
384-425: A draw . In games played under time control , a draw may result under additional conditions. A stalemate is an automatic draw, as is a draw due to impossibility of checkmate. A draw by threefold repetition or the fifty-move rule may be claimed by one of the players with the arbiter (normally using his score sheet ), and claiming it is optional. The draw by fivefold repetition or the seventy-five-move rule
448-487: A draw in the tournament game and then play a speed chess game to decide things. The FIDE 128 player tournament has seen many matches where the two tournament time control games are drawn and advancement is decided by rapid (thirty minutes for a game) or blitz (five minutes) games. The 3-1-0 scoring system awards three points for a win, one point for a draw, and no points for a loss. This system discourages draws, since draws are worth only two-thirds of their previous value. It
512-431: A draw is to first make a move, verbally offer the draw, then press the clock . The other player may decline the draw offer by making a move, in which case the draw offer is no longer in effect, or else indicate acceptance. The offer of a draw should be recorded by each player in their score sheet using the symbol (=) as per Appendix C.12 of FIDE Laws of Chess . In early tournaments, draws were often replayed until one of
576-403: A draw to avoid risking a loss from running out of time, and the opponent may also be agreeable to a draw due to their disadvantageous position. A grandmaster draw or short draw is a draw reached after very few moves, usually between high-ranked players. British master P. H. Clarke wrote about the positive aspects of a short draw: Unless you are of the calibre of Botvinnik – and who
640-431: A draw when their position is worse. However, such offers are sometimes used as psychological tricks. The position in the diagram arose in the game Samuel Reshevsky – Fotis Mastichiadis , Dubrovnik 1950. Reshevsky played 24.Nd2?, and saw at once that he would be put into a very bad situation with 24...Nxf2. Thinking quickly, he offered a draw to his opponent, who was busy writing down the move in his scoresheet. Mastichiadis,
704-401: A minor master , was so happy to get half a point against his illustrious opponent that he did not pause to examine the position before accepting the offer. The rule about the procedure of offering a draw was violated in a 1981 game between Garry Kasparov and Anatoly Karpov . Kasparov moved 17. Ra2 and offered a draw. Karpov instantly replied 17... Be7 and then said "Make a move!", which is
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#1732793925755768-433: A move. A draw by agreement after less than twenty moves where neither player makes a serious effort to win is colloquially known as a "grandmaster draw". Many chess players and organizers disapprove of grandmaster draws, and efforts have been made to discourage them, such as forbidding draw offers before move 30. However, professional players have defended grandmaster draws, saying they are important to conserve energy during
832-424: A normal draw, with three-quarters of a point for a side delivering stalemate (one-quarter of a point going to the side who is stalemated). Kaufman and Arno Nickel have suggested that stalemate and bare king should both be scored as ¾ to the superior side, and that a player who brings about threefold repetition should only be awarded ¼ of a point, citing engine statistics to argue that this would be sufficient to solve
896-453: A point, which is similar to how repetitions are sometimes forbidden in xiangqi , shogi , and Go . (Lasker's original proposal was only for stalemate and bare king; it was supported by Richard Réti and considered not harmful – though unnecessary – by Max Euwe . Capablanca thought that doing this for stalemate would be enough.) Engine tests by Kaufman using Komodo suggest that at over-the-board human World Championship level, this would lower
960-400: A position is considered to be a draw if best play leads to a draw – the difficulty of the defence is not taken into account. Soltis calls these positions "drawable". For instance, under that criterion the rook and bishop versus rook endgame is usually a theoretical draw or book draw, but the side with the bishop often wins in practice. In this position from an actual game, the only move to draw
1024-592: A rule that draws could not be agreed to before move fifty (draws by other means, such as threefold repetition or stalemate, were permissible at any stage). In the World Chess Championship 2016 and 2018 , the players were not permitted to agree a draw before move 30. In the 2021 and 2023 championships, this was extended to move 40. In the very first international round-robin tournament in London in 1862, drawn games had to be replayed until there
1088-562: A series of checks from which the other player cannot escape—as a draw. Any perpetual check situation will eventually be claimable as a draw under the threefold repetition rule or the fifty-move rule; more commonly the players will simply agree a draw. By 1965, perpetual check was no longer in the rules. Although these are the laws as laid down by FIDE and, as such, are used at almost all top-level tournaments, at lower levels different rules may operate, particularly with regard to rapid play finish provisions. In games played with
1152-428: A time penalty or even forfeit the game, but it is unlikely that a player would be penalized for offering a draw in a lifeless position when it is not their turn to move. At one time, chess players considered it bad manners to play out a superior but theoretically drawn endgame . In such cases, the superior side was expected to offer a draw. There are certain behavioural norms relating to draw offers not codified in
1216-410: A tournament. Although a draw may be offered at any time, an illogical offer runs the risk of violating article 11.5, which states: "It is forbidden to distract or annoy the opponent in any manner whatsoever. This includes [...] unreasonable offers of a draw[.]" This rule is applied with the arbiter's discretion; for example, a player loudly offering a draw while the opponent is thinking may well suffer
1280-427: A version of the rule against draws by agreement in fewer than thirty moves, with the director allowing them in exceptional circumstances. FIDE had the intention of enforcing the rule and the penalty was a loss of the game by both players. However, players ignored it or got around it by intentional threefold repetition . Directors were unable or unwilling to enforce the rule. In 1963 FIDE made another attempt to strengthen
1344-445: A violation of the rule. Kasparov moved 18. b5 and then Karpov accepted the draw. In the 1958 game between Tigran Petrosian and Bobby Fischer , Fischer offered a draw without making a move first, which was accepted by Petrosian. He explains in his book My 60 Memorable Games : I offered a draw, not realizing it was bad etiquette. It was Petrosian's place to extend the draw offer after 67...Rxg6+ [...] 68.Kxg6 Kb1 69.f8=Q c2 with
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#17327939257551408-419: Is 124.Rf8! White actually played 124.Rd8 ?? and lost after 124...Re3, with the winning threat of 125...Bh3+ 126.Kg1 Re1#. Bibliography Draw by agreement A game of chess can end in a draw by agreement . A player may offer a draw at any stage of a game; if the opponent accepts, the game is a draw. In some competitions, draws by agreement are restricted; for example draw offers may be subject to
1472-414: Is a stub . You can help Misplaced Pages by expanding it . Draw (chess) In chess , there are a number of ways that a game can end in a draw , neither player winning. Draws are codified by various rules of chess including stalemate (when the player to move is not in check but has no legal move), threefold repetition (when the same position occurs three times with the same player to move), and
1536-445: Is mandatory by the arbiter. A claim of a draw first counts as an offer of a draw, and the opponent may accept the draw without the arbiter examining the claim. Once a claim or draw offer has been made, it cannot be withdrawn. If the claim is verified or the draw offer accepted, the game is over. Otherwise, the offer or claim is nullified and the game continues; the draw offer is no longer in effect. The correct procedure for an offer of
1600-544: Is not an interesting spectacle for the onlookers. However, if chess enthusiasts could find themselves in the positions of the grandmasters they would not judge them so severely. Lajos Portisch wrote: Here Reshevsky offered me a draw, which was accepted. Is this a grandmaster draw? I do not think so. Reshevsky had consumed most of his time, and had only 30 minutes for the remaining moves. On my part it would have been pointless to rely on his time trouble as I saw that after 17. dxe5 Nd5 18. Bxe7 Qxe7 19. Nxd5 Bxd5 20. Be4,
1664-648: Is not enough to win. Thus Kaufman calls this solution "terrible", going against "the very nature of the game": he writes that "The inferior side should be trying to draw, and to penalize Black for obtaining a good result is crazy. It makes chess like a game of ' chicken '; who will 'blink' first and play an unsound move to avoid the mutually bad result of a draw?" Nickel has likewise criticised this idea as "wholly inadequate", creating "an artificial and empty pressure at best", and creating unfairness and incentivising "game manipulations" in team events or double round-robins. Kaufman speaks more favourably of an idea by Ed Epp, which
1728-475: Is the only widely played sport where the contestants can agree to a draw at any time for any reason. Because "grandmaster draws" are widely considered unsatisfactory both for spectators (who may only see half-an-hour of play with nothing very interesting happening) and sponsors (who suffer from decreased interest in the media), various measures have been adopted over the years to discourage players from agreeing to draws. Chess trainer Mark Dvoretsky , writing in
1792-445: Is then shared among the team. This is easier to do when a win earns more points.) The BAP System was designed to make it undesirable for one or both players to agree to a draw by changing the point value of win/loss/draw based on color played: three points for winning as Black , two points for winning as White , one point for drawing as Black, and no points for drawing as White or for losing as either White or Black . The BAP System
1856-451: Is to score draws as 0.4–0.6, equalising the expected score for White and Black; but while he writes that he is "all for this idea", he also admits that "the benefit would be small, most games would have the same outcome". Yuri Averbakh gives these combinations for the weaker side to draw: Andy Soltis discusses the vagueness of the terms "draw", "drawish", "drawable", "book draw", "easy draw", and "dead draw". In books and chess theory
1920-585: Is – you cannot hope to play at full power day after day. The technical draws are a necessary means of conserving energy. As such, they contribute to raising the standard of play rather than lowering it. All of the games of the second Piatigorsky Cup were annotated by players, including the short draws. Their comments on two short draws follow (Spassky vs. Petrosian and Reshevsky vs. Portisch), followed by comments on some other short draws. Boris Spassky wrote: The present game once again demonstrates how grandmasters play when they do not care to win. Of course, it
1984-417: The fifty-move rule (when the last fifty successive moves made by both players contain no capture or pawn move). Under the standard FIDE rules, a draw also occurs in a dead position (when no sequence of legal moves can lead to checkmate), most commonly when neither player has sufficient material to checkmate the opponent. Unless specific tournament rules forbid it, players may agree to
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2048-520: The 2008 Bilbao chess tournament. At the 1964 FIDE Congress, the Puerto Rican delegate proposed that a win be given four points, a draw be given two points, a game played and lost one point, and no points for a forfeit. This would be equivalent to a 3-1-0 system with a 1 point penalty for forfeit. This had been suggested previously by Isaac Kashdan but was not implemented. This system has received some criticism. GM Larry Kaufman points out that
2112-550: The 29th game after thirteen moves. Kasparov explains Draw agreed on Black's proposal: with the resulting complete symmetry, the fighting resources are practically exhausted. White had used 99 minutes; Black had used 51 minutes. In 1962 a Candidates Tournament was held in Curaçao to determine the challenger to Mikhail Botvinnik in the 1963 World Championship . There is good evidence that Soviet players Tigran Petrosian , Paul Keres , and Efim Geller arranged to draw all of
2176-657: The Chief Arbiter: In 1929, the first edition of the FIDE Laws of Chess required thirty moves to be played before a draw by agreement. This rule was discarded when the rules were revised in 1952. In 1954 FIDE rejected a request to reinstate the rule, but it did state that it is unethical and unsportsmanlike to agree to a draw before a serious contest had begun. FIDE stated that the director should discipline players who repeatedly disrespect this guideline, but it seemed to have no effect on players. In 1962 FIDE reinstated
2240-533: The FIDE Laws of Chess but widely observed. For example, many consider it bad manners for a player who has offered a draw once to do so again before their opponent has offered a draw. Such repeated offers of a draw have also sometimes been considered distracting enough to warrant the arbiter taking action under article 11.5. It is considered bad etiquette to offer a draw in a clearly lost position or even when one has no winning chances but one's opponent does. Garry Kasparov regularly criticizes grandmasters who offer
2304-800: The Four Knights. The similar position with Black having moved ...Nf6 is called Petrov's Three Knights Game , although it too usually leads to the Four Knights Game. Rosenthal vs. Steinitz , 1873: 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 g6 4.d4 exd4 5.Nxd4 Bg7 6.Be3 Nge7 7.Bc4 d6 8.0-0 0-0 9.f4 Na5 10.Bd3 d5 11.exd5 Nxd5 12.Nxd5 Qxd5 13.c3 Rd8 14.Qc2 Nc4 15.Bxc4 Qxc4 16.Qf2 c5 17.Nf3 b6 18.Ne5 Qe6 19.Qf3 Ba6 20.Rfe1 f6 21.Ng4 h5 22.Nf2 Qf7 23.f5 g5 24.Rad1 Bb7 25.Qg3 Rd5 26.Rxd5 Qxd5 27.Rd1 Qxf5 28.Qc7 Bd5 29.b3 Re8 30.c4 Bf7 31.Bc1 Re2 32.Rf1 Qc2 33.Qg3 Qxa2 34.Qb8+ Kh7 35.Qg3 Bg6 36.h4 g4 37.Nd3 Qxb3 38.Qc7 Qxd3 0–1 This chess opening -related article
2368-600: The World Championship finals and the Candidates' sections between 2010 and 2013, 82.3% ended in a draw. Since that time, draw rate in top-level correspondence play has been rising steadily, reaching 97% in 2019. Engine tests strongly suggest that the result of a perfectly played game is a draw, and that the draw margin is quite large: White cannot force a win without Black making significant mistakes. The high draw rate has often led to fears of "draw death", as
2432-579: The arbiter declares it is a drawn position. Also known as the "Sofia-Corsica Rules", the anti-draw measure was adopted in the Bilbao Final Masters and the FIDE Grand Prix 2008–2010 (part of the qualifying cycle for the World Chess Championship 2012 ) did not allow players to offer a draw. The draw had to be claimed with the arbiter , who was assisted by an experienced grandmaster. The following draws were only allowed through
2496-409: The backlog. It is now standard practice to score a decisive game as one point to the winner, and a draw as a half point to each player. The rules allow for several types of draws: stalemate , threefold or fivefold repetition of a position, if there has been no capture or a pawn being moved in the last fifty or seventy-five moves, if checkmate is impossible, or if the players agree to
2560-440: The beginning of the 20th century, it is currently "holding pretty steady around 50%, and is only increasing at a very slow rate". The draw rate of elite grandmasters, rated more than 2750 Elo, is, however, significantly higher, surpassing 70% in 2017 and 2018. In top-level correspondence chess under ICCF , where computer assistance is allowed, the draw rate is much higher than in the over-the-board chess: of 1512 games played in
2624-412: The discretion of the arbiter, or may be forbidden before move 30 or 40, or even forbidden altogether. The majority of draws in chess are by agreement. Under FIDE rules , a draw should be offered after making the move and before pressing the clock , then marked in the scoresheet as (=) . However, draw offers made at any time are valid. If a player offers a draw before making a move, the opponent has
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2688-615: The draw as anything other than a very rare outcome. With my anti-draw point system, I am hoping to make 100% of games fighting games with risk and uncertainty, i.e. dramatic potential." The BAP System was first used in the 2006 Bainbridge Slugfest tournament. There have been proposals that certain kinds of draws should be worth more points than others. Ed Epp has suggested that draws should be scored as 0.4–0.6 to compensate for White's first-move advantage. Many players, including former world champions Emanuel Lasker and José Raúl Capablanca , have argued that stalemate should be worth more than
2752-402: The draw is evident. In such a strong tournament and against such outstanding players it would not be wise to try to win a game of this kind. One could only lose energy. Neither side had any advantage, so why try to force the issue? In the 1958 game between Yuri Averbakh and Bobby Fischer , the players agreed to a draw in an unclear position where White is a piece ahead. Asked about the draw,
2816-448: The draw rate from 65.6% to just 22.6%. Other ideas have also been suggested, such as the "football scoring": 0 for a loss, 1 for a draw, and 3 for a win, which is equivalent to scoring draws as ⅓–⅓ rather than ½–½. This has been criticised, however. Kaufman argues that this solution misses the point: it reduces the incentive to draw, but the reason for the high draw rate is not one of incentives, but rather that White's first-move advantage
2880-419: The effort required to play out these positions until a draw can be claimed by repetition or lack of material, for example, is minimal. The Sofia 2005 tournament employed a similar rule, which has become known as "Sofia rules". The players could not draw by agreement, but they could have draws by stalemate , threefold repetition , the fifty-move rule , and insufficient material. Other draws are only allowed if
2944-547: The final game to advance to the semi-finals. Korchnoi, as Black, was winning this game, but he offered a draw after 40 moves. According to Edmar Mednis , it was "gentlemanly and the practical thing to do". Korchnoi went on to unsuccessfully challenge Anatoly Karpov for the World Championship . Sometimes, time constraints for one or both of the players may be a factor in agreeing to a draw. A player with an advantageous position but limited time may be agreeable to
3008-487: The game." Kasparov did not want to lose a fourth game in a row, and Karpov wanted to draw as Black. Kasparov had this to say about one of the games of his 1984 match against Vasily Smyslov : "It all ended in a 'planned' draw, and I was not exactly delighted with such a pre-programmed result." Although many games logically end in a draw after a hard-fought battle between the players, there have been attempts throughout history to discourage or completely disallow draws. Chess
3072-430: The games between themselves. The twelve games played between these three players were all short draws, averaging 19 moves. This diagram shows the final position from the shortest one – only fourteen moves were played. This was in the 25th of 28 rounds, and the final game between Keres and Petrosian. Bobby Fischer charged that Petrosian accepted a draw when he was winning and Jan Timman agrees. Petrosian went on to win
3136-725: The line seems to favor White, Black usually plays 3...Bb4 or 3...g6, the Steinitz Defense . Continuations then are typically 3...Bb4 4.Nd5 and 3...g6 4.d4 exd4 5.Nd5. Another alternative for Black is 3...f5 !? – the Winawer Defense (or Gothic Defense ). Then 4.Bb5 transposes into the Schliemann variation of the Ruy Lopez with 4.Nc3. The Three Knights is almost never seen at master level nowadays, as Black players have sought more active tries, even within
3200-405: The match score. Kasparov had White in the 20th game, in which a draw was agreed after 21 moves. White had used 1 hour and 11 minutes; Black used 1 hour and 52 minutes. Kasparov writes "In the 20th game we decided in the end 'not to play' (i.e. to aim for a short draw) [...] A typical grandmaster draw, although one can understand the two players – each fulfilled the objective he had set himself before
3264-406: The mutually bad result of a draw?". It has also been pointed out that the 3-1-0 system incentivises players to trade wins with each other instead of agreeing to draws, and gives players an easier time cheating as a team. (A team of players enters an open event; one of them is selected to obtain the maximum score and portion of the prize fund, and the others throw their games to that player; the prize
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#17327939257553328-409: The next-to-last round. They played each other that round. After Polugaevsky offered a draw. Tal explains I played 2...e6 and Lev offered me a draw. I accepted, although for decency's sake we made a further 12 moves or so, and the question of first place was put off until the last round.. Before the 20th game of the 1986 World Championship , Kasparov had just lost three games in a row, which evened
3392-575: The option of requesting a move before deciding whether or not to accept the offer. Once made, a draw offer cannot be retracted and is valid until rejected. A player may offer a draw by asking, "Would you like a draw?", or similar; the French word remis (literally "reset") is internationally understood as a draw offer and may be used if the players do not share a common language. Players may also offer draws and accept draw offers by merely nodding their heads. A draw may be rejected either verbally or by making
3456-418: The original authors of Komodo ) and correspondence chess grandmaster Arno Nickel have suggested an extension of Lasker's proposal, which would score stalemate, king and minor piece versus king with the superior side to move (similar to the old bare king rule), and threefold repetition as ¾–¼ rather than draws – for threefold repetition, this means penalising the player who brought about a repetition with ¼ of
3520-426: The players won; however, this was found to be impractical and caused organizational difficulties. The 1867 Paris tournament even ignored draws altogether, effectively treating them as double losses. The 1867 Dundee tournament initiated the awarding of a half point for draws, which is now standard practice. A minority of tournaments use a different scoring scheme, such as "football scoring" where 3 points are awarded to
3584-430: The reason for the high draw rate is not one of incentives, but rather the nature of chess as a game: White has a first-move advantage , but it is not enough to win by force. He thus argues that Black should consider a draw to be a good result, and should not be penalised for it: under the 3-1-0 system, Kaufman argues that chess would become like "a game of ' chicken '; who will 'blink' first and play an unsound move to avoid
3648-736: The rule. Draws by agreement before thirty moves were forbidden, and the penalty was forfeit by both players. Directors were to investigate draws by repetition of position to see if they were to circumvent the rule. The rule was dropped in 1964 because it was decided that it had not encouraged aggressive play. In 2003, GM Maurice Ashley wrote an essay "The End of the Draw Offer?", which raised discussion about ways to avoid quick agreed draws in chess tournaments. Ashley proposed that draw offers not be allowed before move 50. The 2003 Generation Chess International Tournament in New York City had
3712-399: The teenage Fischer said, "I was afraid of losing to a Russian grandmaster and he was afraid of losing to a kid." Averbakh stated that Fischer offered the draw and that each player had only about ten minutes to make the 19 or 20 moves before time control . Several short draws occurred in the World Chess Championship 1984 between Anatoly Karpov and Garry Kasparov . This one occurred in
3776-496: The top players draw an ever-increasing percentage of their games and the game becomes played out: such sentiments have been expressed by World Champions Emanuel Lasker , José Raúl Capablanca , Bobby Fischer , and Vladimir Kramnik . All four advocated changing the rules of chess to avoid the problem, and with the advent of modern chess engines playing at an extremely high level, their ideas have been tested. Based on tests in correspondence and engine play, GM Larry Kaufman (one of
3840-430: The tournament and win the championship from Botvinnik. In the 21st of 24 games of the 1960 World Chess Championship between Mikhail Tal and Mikhail Botvinnik , Tal only needed a half point to win the title, so he got to a position where Black had no winning chances, and quickly agreed to a draw. In the 1967 USSR Championship , Lev Polugaevsky and Mikhail Tal were leading with the same number of points going into
3904-461: The winner and 1 point to each in the event of a draw. For the purpose of calculating Elo rating , these tournaments are treated as if they were using standard scoring. Article 5 of the 2018 FIDE Laws of Chess gives the basic ways a game may end in a draw; more complicated ways are detailed in Article 9: There is no longer a rule defining perpetual check —a situation in which one player gives
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#17327939257553968-503: Was a decisive result. A similar format, called gladiator chess , was introduced in the Danish Chess Championships 2006. Proposed cure for severe acute "drawitis" by FIDE officials Eliminates draws completely by forcing a fast time control game to be played after an accepted draw proposal to ensure there is always a winner and a loser. One potential issue for this proposal is that both players can quickly agree to
4032-414: Was adopted by FIFA for football matches in 1994, after many leagues around the world had used it successfully to reduce the number of stalling draws. FIFA formerly employed the 2-1-0 scoring system, which is equivalent to that used generally in chess today: one point for a win, half a point for a draw, and no points for a loss. A 3-1-0 system was first used in the 2003 Lippstadt chess tournament and again in
4096-596: Was developed by Clint Ballard, a chess aficionado and software-company president, who named it the Ballard Anti-draw Point system (BAP). Ballard explained the purpose of the BAP System: "The usual flurry of last round draws in almost all tournaments makes chess unmarketable on TV. No excitement, no drama, no TV money for chess. Chess will NEVER succeed in the American TV market until we eliminate
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