Under licence:
64-688: The Patria AMV (Armored Modular Vehicle) is an 8×8 multi-role military vehicle produced by the Finnish defence industry company Patria . The main feature of the AMV is its modular design , which allows the incorporation of different turrets, weapons, sensors , or communications systems on the same carriage. Designs exist for different APC ( armoured personnel carrier ) vehicles and IFV ( infantry fighting vehicle ) versions, communications versions, ambulances and different fire-support versions, armed with large-caliber mortar and gun systems. The vehicle has
128-629: A Military Gendarmerie unit, a component of the 10th Logistics Brigade, elements of the 5th Military Engineers Regiment, and three Mil Mi-17 helicopters. In 2019 a new long-term program designed to modernize the Polish Armed Forces was introduced. Over the period of the next 10 to 14 years a large portion of the equipment currently being used by the Polish Army will be either upgraded or replaced. Some elements of this program are already in place. The Polish Ministry of Defence signed
192-731: A V-hull . In April 2013, the Havoc successfully completed amphibious testing as part of its evaluation for the MPC program. The Marine Personnel Carrier was put on hold in June 2013, restarted in February 2014, and then restructured as Phase 1 of the Amphibious Combat Vehicle (ACV) program, which included the previous MPC competitor entries. During the summer of 2013, the Havoc successfully completed protection systems testing during
256-792: A Warsaw Pact attack on Denmark , to open the Baltic straits to the North Sea and beyond. There were 205,000 personnel, of which 168,000 were conscripts. Following the end of the Cold War the Wojska Lądowe was drastically reduced and reorganised. In 1992, the Kraków Military District was recreated. From nine divisions, the total was planned in 2001 to fall to four, plus six independent brigades. Since 1 January 1999, Poland has been divided into two military districts. These are
320-464: A 1995 investigation by the Finnish Army HQ into different armored vehicle concepts. In 1996, Patria Vehicles began to develop different concept vehicles and found the 8×8 one to be most suitable as a replacement for the 6×6 Sisu Pasi . The Finnish Defence Forces (FDF) ordered a concept study in 1999, which was ready by 2000. Patria continued to develop the vehicle and the first AMV prototype
384-691: A clearance area of more than 250,000 square kilometers (80% of the country). 14.75 million munitions of various types and 59 million bullets, bombs and other ammunition were found and removed. The mining operations cost the lives of 646 sappers. In 1949 the military districts were reduced to four. They were the Pomeranian Military District , HQ in Bydgoszcz, the Silesian Military District , HQ in Wroclaw,
448-578: A contract aiming at modernization of all Leopard 2 main battle tanks used by the Polish Army to the Leopard 2PL standard. The completion of this program is planned to take place prior to 2023. The first Leopard 2PL arrived in March 2018. The Polish Army has 1,009 tanks (2017) including 249 Leopard 2 tanks (117 Leopard 2A4, 105 Leopard 2A5, 25 Leopard 2PL , 2 Leopard 2NJ), 232 PT-91 tanks, that underwent modernization in 2016, and 328 T-72 tanks. 230 of
512-536: A new upgraded version of AMV. In June 2014 Patria announced the name of its next generation 8×8 armoured vehicles, Patria AMV, which stands for Extra Payload, Extra Performance and Extra Protection. Patria and Lockheed Martin agreed to cooperate in the competition for the US Marines MPC ( Marine Personnel Carrier ) program that was set to replace the LAV-25 . The USMC planned to obtain 600 MPC vehicles. Patria
576-592: A personal computer, new protective uniform, modular body armor, night vision devices, advanced communication system, etc. To modernize its artillery, Poland has purchased several systems including the WR-40 Langusta rocket launchers equipped with state-of-the-art Topaz fire control. In 2019 the Ministry of Military Affairs ordered 20 M142 HIMARS launchers plus support vehicles. 122 new self-propelled NATO-compatible tracked AHS Krab gun-howitzers will replace
640-556: A result of the invasion, the Polish government has expedited the process of modernization of the military equipment. In July 2022, Poland signed a contract to acquire 1000 K2 Black Panther tanks and 460 K9 Thunder howitzers from South Korea for (the cost for the latter was US$ 2.4 billion). The first batch of K2 tanks and K9 howitzers was delivered in December 2022. Further deliveries are scheduled for 2023-2026 period. Looking towards
704-469: A series of blast tests. The vehicle completed all threshold and objective protection system testing, with instrumentation indicating that no disabling injuries would have resulted to any of the three crew members and nine dismounted Marines. Lockheed delivered a report demonstrating the high degree of commonality between the Havoc and other Marine Corps vehicles, aimed at reducing cost, training requirements, and logistics needs. The Lockheed Havoc AMV completed
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#1732787291984768-439: A total of around thirty Polish divisions involved. Boris Savinkov was at the head of an army of 20,000 to 30,000 largely Russian POWs, and was accompanied by Dmitry Merezhkovsky and Zinaida Gippius . The Polish forces grew from approximately 100,000 in 1918 to over 500,000 in early 1920. In August 1920, the Polish army had reached a total strength of 737,767 people. Half of that was on the frontline. Given Soviet losses, there
832-414: A very good level of mine protection and can withstand explosions of up to 10 kilograms (22 lb) TNT . The AMV has protection levels up to 30 mm APFSDS frontal arc. Another important feature is the very good mobility, combining speed, agility, and crew comfort in rough terrain, enabled by the sophisticated but rugged hydropneumatic suspension adjusting each wheel individually. The AMV stems from
896-685: Is being planned. After the invasion of Ukraine, Poland ordered 1 battery of the Common Anti-Air Modular Missile (CAMM) short-range air defense system from the UK as a short-term stop-gap, with plans to eventually acquire 23 batteries for the NAREW program. The Polish army has 863 new KTO Rosomak multi-role wheeled armored personnel carriers. They will be combined with new BWP Borsuk infantry fighting vehicle. The gradual replacement of older BWP-1 with this particular new design
960-805: Is known as XA-360 in Finnish Army service, while the AMOS version is known as XA-361 . In June 2006, the Slovenian Ministry of Defence declared that the Patria AMV would be the new armoured fighting vehicle of the Slovenian Armed Forces . Patria will supply 135 vehicles, some equipped with the NEMO mortar, some with Elbit 30 mm remote controlled weapon station and the rest with Kongsberg Protector turrets. Allegations in
1024-401: Is to start from 2023 onward (prototypes are currently being tested). New rifles ( FB MSBS Grot ) and pistols ( Vis-100 ) are being brought into service to supplement current FB Beryl rifles as well as to replace FB P-83 Wanad pistols and AKM rifles. A new Individual Warfare System "Tytan" (Titan) is being developed to integrate combat systems designed for individual soldiers and includes
1088-590: The 1st Warsaw Mechanised Division was disbanded. General Edward Pietrzyk served as commander of the Polish Land Forces from 2000 to September 2006. He was succeeded by General Waldemar Skrzypczak (2006–2009). In May 2014, Defence Minister Tomasz Siemoniak announced plans for the future acquisition of attack helicopters in response to the Russo-Ukrainian war . On 25 November 2015, chief of National Defence Commission Michał Jach, indicated
1152-534: The 2S1 Goździk , and new wheeled AHS Kryl howitzers will replace the wz. 1977 Dana. Deliveries of 122 M120 Rak mortars have been ongoing since 2017, plus 60 command vehicles (based on the KTO Rosomak fighting platform) and support vehicles. New reconnaissance vehicles, the Rosomak WRT, began entering into service after 2016. Before the end of 2023 will commence the formation of a sixth army division in
1216-569: The Argo Avenger . When such a vehicle only has eight wheels by definition all are driven. When it has twelve – with two pairs of dual wheels on each rear axle – all are also driven but the 8×8 designation remains. Very occasionally, the two front axles are fitted with dual wheels, such as on the Sterling T26 . For most military applications where traction/mobility are considered more important than payload, single wheels on each axle are
1280-473: The European Union and NATO deployments around the world. Poland's recorded military history stretches back a millennium – since the 10th century (see List of Polish wars and History of the Polish Army ). Poland's modern army was formed after Poland regained independence following World War I in 1918. When Poland regained independence in 1918, it recreated its military which participated in
1344-638: The Internal Security Corps (KBW). The rule was that military units were used primarily against the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA), while the Internal Security Corps was used to fight the armed underground independence. Often however army units fought the underground resistance, and vice versa . The culmination of the UPA suppression operation was the so-called 'Wisła Action' ( Operation Vistula ) which took place in 1947. At
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#17327872919841408-843: The Neutral Nations Supervisory Commission in Korea . Poland contributed troops to the UNIFIL mission in Lebanon between 1982 and 2009. Poland sent a divisional headquarters and a brigade to Iraq after the 2003 Iraq war . Poland sent ten rotations of troops, manning a significant portion of Multinational Division Central-South . At its peak Poland, had 2,500 soldiers in the south of Iraq. Poland deployed about ten attack and transport helicopters as part of its force in Iraq between 2004 and 2008. These helicopters formed
1472-799: The Polish Armed Forces in the East , as well as interior (partisan) forces, primarily represented by the Home Army (AK) had land forces during the Second World War . While the forces fighting under the Allied banner were supported by the Polish Air Force and Navy, the partisan forces were an exclusively land formation. The army operational today has its roots in the surrogate force formed in support of Soviet interests during
1536-655: The Polish–Soviet War of 1919–1921, and in the two smaller conflicts ( Polish–Ukrainian War (1918–1919) and the Polish–Lithuanian War (1919–1920)). Initially, right after the First World War , Poland had five military districts (1918–1921): The Polish Land Forces as readied for the Polish–Soviet War was made up of soldiers who had formerly served in the various partitioning empires, supported by some international volunteers. There appear to have been
1600-593: The Pomeranian Military District ( Pomorski Okręg Wojskowy ) with HQ in Bydgoszcz , covering northern Poland, and the Silesian Military District ( Śląski Okręg Wojskowy ) with HQ in Wrocław , covering southern Poland. From that date the former Krakow Military District became the headquarters of the Air-Mechanized Corps, which later became the headquarters of the 2nd Mechanised Corps . On 1 September 2011
1664-808: The Poznań 1956 protests , the Polish 1970 protests , and protests during Martial law in Poland in 1981–1982. Troops of the Silesian Military District also took part in the suppressing of the 1968 democratisation process of Czechoslovakia, commonly known as the Prague Spring . In 1989 the Pomeranian Military District controlled the 8th, 12th, 15th, 16th, and 20th Divisions, the Silesian Military District controlled
1728-618: The Republic of North Macedonia announced in 2006 that it would procure the same type that the Croatian military chooses after test trials in 2007—as this would be a less expensive than conducting trials of their own. The configuration of Patria vehicles that eventually win the competition will be similar to those in Slovenian service, but probably in smaller numbers. Any contract has not been published. In January 2008, Patria announced that
1792-786: The Second Army was tasked with the protection of the western border of the state from Jelenia Gora to Kamien Pomorski, and on the basis of its headquarters, the staff of the Poznan Military District was created at Poznań. The southern border, from Jelenia Gora to the Użok railway station (at the junction of the Polish, the Soviet and the Czechoslovak borders) was occupied by the First Army . Its headquarters staff formed
1856-584: The South African National Defence Force (SANDF). The AMV will replace South-African Ratels as part of the "Project Hoefyster" (Horseshoe). Five different versions are included: Command, Mortar, Missile, Section and Fire Support vehicles. In November 2013, Denel Land Systems and Patria announced an agreement regarding Patria AMV 8×8 armoured wheeled vehicle serial production and delivery to South Africa. The agreement includes 238 vehicles, with 5 pre-series vehicles delivered during
1920-705: The United Arab Emirates armed forces had ordered the AMV, equipped with the BMP-3 turret. The number of vehicles is yet to be announced. In January 2008, Patria offered to deliver 30 AMVs within four months of ordering, if the Czech Army chose the AMV as its next APC. The Czech army had earlier chosen the Austrian Steyr Pandur as their next APC, but the Czech government withdrew from
1984-599: The Warsaw Military District , HQ in Warsaw , and the Kraków Military District with its headquarters in Kraków. In November 1953, the Kraków Military District was dissolved and until 1992, Poland was divided into three districts. Following victory and the movement of Polish borders these troops and other Polish soldiers thought loyal to their Soviet overlords were built up into a force which was to form part of
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2048-676: The Warsaw Pact . Polish Army troops would have formed part of the second strategic echelon deployed for an attack on NATO 's Allied Forces Central Europe . A Polish Front headquarters was formed in 1958, along with three armies formed from 1955, the First Polish Army, the Second Army, and the Fourth Army, mobilisation-only headquarters that were to be formed within the three districts. The Polish Front headquarters
2112-549: The Wisla and Narew procurement programs. The Wisla program will procure medium range air defense platforms and is being fulfilled through the acquisition of 2 Patriot air and missile defense batteries integrated with IBCS (delivery scheduled for late 2022), with plans to order six further batteries. The Narew program covers short range air defense (SHORAD) and is in its final stages of design selection and contract assignment. Considerable involvement of Polish defense contractors
2176-417: The 2nd, 4th, 5th, 10th, and 11th Divisions, and the Warsaw Military District the 1st, 3rd, and 9th Divisions, plus the 6th Airborne Division earmarked for Front control. The 7th Sea Landing Division was based within the Pomeranian Military District but probably earmarked for front control. The two districts facing Germany each controlled four divisions in 1990, which had been recently reorganised, in line with
2240-558: The Finnish media that Patria used bribery to secure the Slovenian contract led to a scandal and a criminal investigation in Finland and may have contributed to the defeat of Prime Minister Janez Janša in the 2008 Slovenian parliamentary elections. Due to the financial crisis, the defence budget was cut several times. At first, the contract to supply 135 vehicles should have been amended to have less vehicles with better armament. Later on,
2304-651: The Independent Air Assault Group ( pl:Samodzielna Grupa Powietrzno-Szturmowa ). The division was disbanded in 2008. A Polish Military Advisory Liaison Team (MALT) stayed in Iraq until at least 2011 (see pl:PKW Irak ). One of the most recent peace keeping missions was MINURCAT in Chad and the Central African Republic , where Poland despatched troops from 2007 to 2010. Among the deployed troops were two Reconnaissance companies,
2368-536: The Italian Oto Melara 30 mm Hitfist -30P turret and 377 AMVs in various other configurations to be delivered between 2004 and 2013. Some of the Polish vehicles were deployed in Afghanistan . The Polish vehicles are known as KTO Rosomak (" wolverine ") in Polish Army service. In 2013 the Polish army ordered 307 more vehicles, including 122 AMVs and 80 mortars, totaling 997 units making Poland
2432-812: The Nevada Automotive Test Center's Butte Mountain Trail course in September 2014. Lockheed planned to offer the Havoc in the Marine Corps' ACV Phase 1 program, and give them 16 vehicles to test once a Request for Proposals (RFP) was released in early 2015. In July 2015 partnership between Patria and Lockheed Martin came to an end, and Havoc was not offered to the Amphibious Combat Vehicle program. The Polish Army has ordered 690 vehicles in 2003, including 313 AMVs with
2496-399: The Poznan Military District, HQ in Poznan, the Pomeranian Military District, HQ in Torun (formed from the staff of the short-lived LWP 1st Army Corps) and the Silesian Military District, HQ in Katowice, created in the fall of 1945. In June 1945 the 1st, 3rd and 8th Infantry Divisions were assigned internal security duties. The 4th Infantry Division was reorganised for the purpose of creating
2560-545: The T-72s are being upgraded by the Bumar-Łabędy arms manufacturing plant. Improvements include: installation of new radio communication systems, digital engine control and start-up system, 3rd generation thermal imaging cameras, external transport baskets, and any necessary overhauls and repairs that can improve their longevity and combat ability on the modern battlefield. Following Russia's invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, Poland has donated over 200 T-72 tanks to Ukraine's army, along with dozens of other armored vehicles. As
2624-479: The Ukrainian Armed Forces near Andriivka . Comparable systems: Eight-wheel drive Eight-wheel drive , often notated as 8WD or 8×8 , is a drivetrain configuration that allows all eight wheels of an eight-wheeled vehicle to be drive wheels simultaneously. Unlike four-wheel drive drivetrains, the configuration is largely confined to heavy-duty off-road and military vehicles, such as armored vehicles , tractor units or all-terrain vehicles such as
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2688-408: The basis of the Silesian Military District . In mid-1945, after the end of World War II , the Polish Army, as part of the overall armed forces, the People's Army of Poland , was divided into six (later seven) districts. These were the Warsaw Military District, HQ in Warsaw, the Lublin Military District, HQ in Lublin, the Kraków Military District, HQ in Kraków, the Lodz Military District, HQ in Lodz,
2752-466: The deal at the end of last year, citing Steyr's failure to fulfill the commitments ensuing from the contract. In August 2010, Patria sold 113 AMVs to Sweden in a deal worth 250 million Euros. The deal included an option for another 113 vehicles in the future. The Polish-made Patria AMVs have been used by the Armed Forces of Ukraine during the Russian invasion of Ukraine since autumn 2023. On 24 September, three vehicles were lost during failed attack by
2816-443: The defence ministry suffered from even bigger financial cuts. In 2012, the Defence Minister announced the termination of the contract, by which time 30 vehicles had been received. More armored vehicles and higher calibre weapons are to be bought in the mid-term future. In May 2007, the South African Denel Land Systems was awarded a contract to build an improved version of the AMV, with a high level of ballistic and mine protection for
2880-496: The development phase. In 2023, the SANDF was still in possession of 4 of the 5 original pre-production vehicles, but had not actually accepted them into service. The remainder of the order remained unfilled due to Denel's financial difficulties. In July 2007, the Croatian Ministry of Defence selected the Patria AMV as the new armoured fighting vehicle of the Armed Forces of the Republic of Croatia in their first international tender in its history. 84 AMVs will be supplied. Initially,
2944-408: The erroneous myths generated by this campaign were accounts of Polish cavalry charging German tanks, which did not, in fact, take place. In the east, the Red Army took the other half of the country in accordance with the Nazi-Soviet Pact . Following the country's fall, Polish soldiers began regrouping in what was to become the Polish Army in France . Both the Polish Armed Forces in the West and
3008-416: The establishment of the People's Republic of Poland after the Second World War . Two Polish armies, the First Army (Poland) and the Second Army fought with the Red Army on the Eastern Front , supported by some Polish Air Force elements . The formation of a Third Army had begun but was not completed. The end of the war found the Polish Army in the midst of intense organisational development. Although
3072-477: The front pair steering . Occasionally a single front and three rear (tridem) axles are seen, an example being the Oshkosh M1070 tank transporter . In such configurations, the frontmost and rearmost axle usually steer. Other wheel groupings include that of the ZIL-135 . Many wheeled armored vehicles have an 8x8 drivetrain, with the axles (which usually have independent suspension) more evenly spaced. Latest generation 8x8 wheeled armored vehicles have steering on
3136-574: The future, the 'Wilk' procurement program envisions the acquisition of up to 500 new tanks. Some of the T-72s and PT-91s will be replaced by M1A2 Abrams SEPv3 main battle tanks (separate from the Wilk program) after Poland signed a contract to purchase 250 Abrams M1A2 SEPv3 tanks (plus ammunition, spare parts, training, and logistical vehicles) on April 6, 2022. For air and missile defense, acquisitions of Poprad Anti-Air missile systems - which covers very short range air defense (VSHORAD) - are in their final stages. Legacy systems will be replaced through
3200-417: The implementation of the Polish Front concept was abandoned, new tactical units and troop types were created. As a result of mobilisation, troop numbers in May 1945 reached 370,000 soldiers, and in September 1945 there were 440,000. Military districts were organised in liberated areas. The districts exercised direct authority over the units stationed on the territory administered by them. Returning to Poland,
3264-425: The largest operator by a fair margin. The Vehicles are built in Poland under licence. In 2017 Polish Ministry of Defence said that production of KTO Rosomak is now 100% based in Poland. The Finnish Army has ordered 24 AMVs fitted with the AMOS mortar system and 62 AMVs fitted with Protector (RWS) remote weapon system for the 12.7 mm M2HB QCB heavy machine gun or the GMG grenade machine gun . The standard version
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#17327872919843328-423: The late 1990s Soviet defensive doctrine, from a 3:1 mix of motor rifle : tank regiments into a 2:2 mix of motor rifle and tank regiments. The Warsaw Military District in the east controlled only the 1st Mechanised Division . Two other mechanised divisions in that district had been disbanded in 1988. There was also the 6th Airborne Division and the 7th Sea Landing Division , possibly intended to form part of
3392-422: The leading manufacturer of IFV in the 15–27 tonne range in Europe. Subsequent deals were made all over Europe, as well as in South Africa and the United Arab Emirates—in many places being locally produced. In 2004, the AMV became the first 4th generation combat vehicle of its kind to enter serial production. The design was based on experience gained from building the Pasi and on customer feedback on that vehicle. It
3456-449: The necessity to increase the number of Polish troops from 100,000 to 150,000. However, Jach stressed that the process was complicated and should not be rushed. On June 17, 2022, after the Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2022 and the increase of the Polish armed forces to 300,000. the formation of two new mechanized divisions was announced. From the 1950s the Polish Land Forces have contributed troops to peacekeeping operations, initially
3520-454: The norm. On some vehicles, usually recovery trucks or heavy tractor units , the rear axles will have wider tires than the front axles. Heavy hauler and ballast tractor 8×8s have had a long history as prime movers in both the military (as tank transports and artillery tractors ), as well as commercially in logging and heavy equipment hauling both on- and off-road. Most eight-wheel drive trucks have two front and two rear axles, with only
3584-415: The order by a half, 64 vehicles were mentioned, but it was decided that the total of 126 units would remain on order. In order to somewhat decrease the cost of the deal, the most expensive variants like the NEMO or engineering units will probably be replaced by less costly APC variants. On the other hand, the production will be sped up and all vehicles are to be delivered by the end of 2012. The government of
3648-423: The plan called for 84 8×8 vehicles and 42 6×6 vehicles. The Croatian Ministry of Defence has approved the purchase of 84 Patria AMV 8×8 vehicles. The 6×6 configuration idea was scrapped, and the remaining 42 vehicles were decided to be 8×8s. The purchase of the remaining 42 AMVs was made in December 2008. Due to the financial crisis, the contract was slightly amended in April 2010. There was an initial plan of shelving
3712-484: The rearmost axle to improve maneuverability. In the case of both truck and armored vehicle applications, drive may be limited to the rear two axles for on-road use, thus reducing drivetrain stress and tire wear, and increasing fuel efficiency . Polish Land Forces War on Terror The Land Forces ( Polish : Wojska Lądowe ) are the land forces of the Polish Armed Forces . They currently contain some 110,000 active personnel and form many components of
3776-480: The same time demobilisation took place, moving the armed forces to a peacetime footing. On 10 August 1945 a "decree of the partial demobilisation" of the armed forces was issued. The next demobilisation phases took place in February and December 1946. One of the most important tasks facing the army after the war was mine clearance. Between 1944 and 1956 the demining operation involved 44 engineering units or about 19,000 sappers. They cleared mines and other munitions in
3840-430: Was deactivated in 1990, and the three-army mobilisation scheme was likewise abandoned. Polish land forces during the communist era included troops dedicated to internal security – the Territorial Defence Forces – and control of the country's borders. Until the fall of communism the army's prestige continued to fall, as it was used by the communist government to violently suppress several outbursts of protest, including
3904-401: Was entirely designed in 3D virtual environments before construction, and successful testing of the prototype showed that it fulfilled all expectations. The vehicle was initially designed in 6×6, 8×8 and 10×10 variants, but the 10×10 variant was later dropped. The AMV is offered in three main variants: a basic platform, a high roof platform and a heavy weapon platform. In 2013 Patria launched
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#17327872919843968-458: Was ready for testing in November 2001. Two evaluation samples were ordered by the FDF in December 2001, and were delivered in 2003. Later in 2003, the FDF ordered 24 AMOS -equipped Patria AMVs for delivery 2006–09. The FDF also said that they were looking to order some 100 units, equipped with remote-controlled weapon stations, later placing an order for 62. In December 2002, the Polish Defence Ministry placed an order for 690 vehicles, making Patria
4032-494: Was rough numerical parity between the two armies. By the time of the Battle of Warsaw Poles might have even had a slight advantage in numbers and logistics. Among the major formations involved on the Polish side were a number of Fronts , including the Lithuanian-Belarusian Front , and about seven armies, including the First Polish Army . The German invasion of Poland began on 1 September 1939. The Wehrmacht seized half of Poland quickly despite heavy Polish resistance. Among
4096-412: Was to deliver the AMV 8×8 vehicle. Lockheed Martin Systems Integration was responsible for the MPC offer, as well as system integration, survivability systems, the US production line, and networking and logistics. In August 2012, the Marines gave Lockheed a developmental contract for their vehicle, called the Havoc . For protection against mine attacks, the Havoc would have used a subframe rather than
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