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Asiatic Squadron

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A squadron , or naval squadron , is a significant group of warships which is nonetheless considered too small to be designated a fleet . A squadron is typically a part of a fleet. Between different navies there are no clear defining parameters to distinguish a squadron from a fleet (or from a flotilla ), and the size and strength of a naval squadron varies greatly according to the country and time period. Groups of small warships, or small groups of major warships, might instead be designated flotillas by some navies according to their terminology. Since the size of a naval squadron varies greatly, the rank associated with command of a squadron also varies greatly.

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66-536: The Asiatic Squadron was a squadron of United States Navy warships stationed in East Asia during the latter half of the 19th century. It was created in 1868 when the East India Squadron was disbanded. Vessels of the squadron were primarily involved in matters relating to American commerce with China and Japan , though it participated in several conflicts over 34 years of service until becoming

132-580: A brown-water navy , this time in South Vietnam . After studies were conducted, plans were drawn up by the U.S. Naval Advisory Group in February 1966, and by the summer of 1966 Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara authorized the U.S. Navy a Mobile Riverine Force (MRF). Although U.S. Navy Patrol Craft Fast (Swift Boats), Patrol Boat River (PBRs) and assorted gunboats had been performing counter-insurgency operations in country prior to 1966,

198-505: A class of monitors armed with spar torpedoes . In the 1860s and 1870s several nations built monitors that were used for coastal defense and took the name monitor as a type of ship. Those that were directly modelled on Monitor were low-freeboard, mastless, steam-powered vessels with one or two rotating, armoured turrets. The low freeboard meant that these ships were unsuitable for ocean-going duties and were always at risk of swamping, flooding and possible loss. However, it greatly reduced

264-667: A shore battery protecting Olongapo . Zafiro withdrew to Cavite and reported the incident to headquarters. In response, Charleston engaged the battery. On 23 September 1899, Charleston , Concord , the monitor USS  Monterey , and Zafiro steamed into Subic Bay and destroyed the battery in the Battle of Olongapo . Then, a company of U.S. Marines and sailors landed and took control. Charleston grounded on an uncharted reef off Camiguin Island on 2 November 1899. She sustained heavy damage, and her crew abandoned ship and escaped to

330-663: A bloody frontal assault the American troops were repulsed and the Filipinos won the battle. In November 1900, the Asiatic Squadron auxiliary cruiser USS  Yosemite was heavily damaged in a typhoon while in Apra Harbor , Guam. Due to damage to her screw, her crew scuttled her. They were picked up later by the collier USS  Justin . The gunboat USS  Vicksburg assisted land forces in capturing

396-471: A few still existed, and only seven were still in service, all of which had been relegated to being submarine tenders . This would be the last war in which United States monitor-type vessels would see commissioned service. The last original American monitor, USS  Wyoming , renamed USS Cheyenne in 1908, was removed from the Navy List in 1937. The Austro-Hungarian Navy had also invested heavily in

462-516: A generic term for any turreted ship. In the early 20th century, the term was revived for shallow-draught armoured shore bombardment vessels, particularly those of the Royal Navy : the Lord Clive -class monitors carried guns firing heavier shells than any other warship ever has, seeing action (albeit briefly) against German targets during World War I. The Lord Clive vessels were scrapped in

528-600: A landing party from Petrel occupied Cebu . In October 1899, Petrel joined Callao in supporting American troops in the Battle of Noveleta by bombarding Filipino troop concentrations at Noveleta before a shore party made its assault. Many of the captured Spanish gunboats used in the Philippine–American War were manned by United States Army troops and operated together with United States Navy forces. In mid-April 1899, General Henry Lawton led an expedition of 1,500 men in several cascoes and three gunboats to

594-634: A low freeboard, was lost in heavy weather. A late example of a vessel modeled on Monitor was Huáscar , designed by Captain Cowper P. Coles , the advocate and developer of turret ships for the Royal Navy. Huáscar was one of many monitor designs to be equipped with a ram . She was built and launched in 1865 for the Peruvian Navy at Birkenhead, England . Huáscar , under the command of Rear Admiral Miguel Grau , fought with distinction during

660-425: A more seaworthy vessel that was more capable in ship-to-shore combat, a type called the breastwork monitor became more common in the later nineteenth century. These ships had raised turrets and a heavier superstructure on a platform above the hull. They were still not particularly successful as seagoing ships, because of their short sailing range and the poor reliability of their steam engines. The first of these ships

726-525: A place near Santa Cruz to find another former Spanish gunboat which was being used by the Filipinos; during the ensuing Battle of Santa Cruz , the American force captured six steam launches along with two cascoes, and later took the Filipino gunboat, which the Filipinos reportedly had disarmed so that they could use her guns on land, without a fight. Baltimore and Petrel served at the Battle of Iloilo , in which about 1,000 Filipinos were defeated when

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792-511: A squadron might number three to ten vessels, which might be major warships , transport ships , submarines , or small craft in a larger task force or a fleet . A squadron may be composed of one type of ship of various types tasked with a specific mission such as coastal defense , blockade , or minesweeping . In the United States Navy , the term squadron has always been used for formations of destroyers and submarines. A fleet

858-599: Is how USS Monitor was given its name. It was designed by John Ericsson for emergency service in the Federal navy during the American Civil War (1861–65) to blockade the Confederate States from supply at sea. Ericsson designed her to operate in shallow water and to present as small a target as possible, the water around her acting as protection. Nathaniel Hawthorne described Monitor thus: It

924-403: Is usually commanded by a flag officer such as a vice admiral or a rear admiral , but squadrons are sometimes commanded by commodores or simply the most senior captain (often one and the same), depending on the importance of the command. A large squadron will sometimes be divided into two or more divisions, each of which might be commanded by a subordinate captain. Like a fleet , a squadron

990-482: Is usually, but not necessarily, a permanent formation. There are several types of squadron: In modern navies, squadrons have tended to become administrative units. Most navies began to abandon the squadron as a tactical formation during the Second World War . The need to provide capital ships with the anti-submarine protection of a destroyer screen and air cover from an aircraft carrier led to

1056-463: The Asiatic Fleet in 1902. In May 1871, Rear Admiral John Rodgers went to Korea, commanding an expedition of five Asiatic Squadron vessels, the screw frigate USS  Colorado , the screw sloops-of-war USS  Alaska and USS  Benicia , the sidewheel gunboat USS  Monocacy , and the screw tug USS  Palos . The objective of the operation was to ascertain

1122-669: The Bombardment of San Juan , the Battle of Fajardo , and the Philippines Campaign . Other monitors also participated in the conflict, including original Civil War ships. These were reactivated for coastal defence to allay fears about surprise Spanish raids, but this was pure political posturing as the ships were too slow and obsolete to have any military value. During World War I, the Royal Navy developed several classes of ships which were designed to give close support to troops ashore. Termed "monitors", they owed little to

1188-645: The Race to the Sea in 1914. In addition to these ships, several monitors were built during the course of the war. Their armament typically consisted of a turret taken from a de-commissioned pre-dreadnought battleship. These monitors were designed to be resilient against torpedo attacks—waterline bulges were incorporated into the Abercrombie class of 1915. As the war settled to its longer course, these heavier monitors formed patrols along with destroyers on either side of

1254-996: The Russian Civil War and the Manchukuo Imperial Navy raids in the Far East, the Soviets developed a new monitor class for their river flotillas. The lead ship of the new series was Zheleznyakov , laid down in the Leninska Kuznia factory in Kiev in late 1934. Zheleznyakov is preserved as a museum and monument on the Dnieper . The Royal Navy still had HMS  Abercrombie (completed 1943) and HMS  Roberts (1941) in reserve in 1953. They were typical monitors, trunk-decked vessels, 373 feet (114 m) long overall, 90-foot (27 m) in

1320-668: The Straits of Dover to exclude enemy surface vessels from the English Channel and keep the enemy in port. The monitors could also operate into the river mouths. HMS  General Wolfe , one of the Lord Clive -class monitors, which had a single 18-inch (457 mm) gun added in 1918, was able to shell a bridge 20 miles (30 km) away near Ostend . Other RN monitors served in the Mediterranean. The dimensions of

1386-736: The War of the Pacific . Huáscar successfully raided enemy sea lanes for several months and delayed an invasion of the Chilean Army into Peruvian territory until she was captured by the Chilean Navy at the Battle of Angamos in 1879. Once in Chilean hands, Huáscar fought a small battle with the Peruvian monitor Manco Capac , during the bombardment of Arica , where she was damaged; after

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1452-551: The river gunboats which were used by imperial powers to police their colonial possessions ; indeed the largest and most heavily armed river gunboats became known as river monitors . They were used by several navies, including those of the United Kingdom, the United States and Japan. USS Monitor had had very little freeboard so as to bring the mass of the gun turret down, thereby increasing stability and making

1518-479: The 1860s, during the First World War and with limited use in the Second World War . The original monitor was designed in 1861 by John Ericsson , who named it USS  Monitor . Subsequent vessels of this type were accordingly classed as "monitors". They were designed for shallow waters and served as coastal ships. The term also encompassed more flexible breastwork monitors , and was sometimes used as

1584-567: The 1920s. The term "monitor" also encompasses the strongest of riverine warcraft, known as river monitors . During the Vietnam War these much smaller craft were used by the United States Navy . The Brazilian Navy's Parnaíba and the Romanian Navy's three Mihail Kogălniceanu -class river monitors are among the last monitors in service. In Latin, a monitor is someone who admonishes: that is, reminds others of their duties—which

1650-491: The Asiatic Fleet replaced the Asiatic Squadron in defending American interests in East Asia from 1902 until February 1942. Successive Commanders-in-Chief of the Asiatic Squadron were as follows: Squadron (naval) Before 1864 the entire fleet of the Royal Navy was divided into three squadrons, the red, the white, and the blue . Each Royal Navy squadron alone was more powerful than most national navies. Today,

1716-530: The Asiatic Squadron protected cruiser USS  Charleston captured Guam from the Spanish without resistance, beginning the American possession of the island. The Asiatic Squadron participated in the Philippine–American War from 1899 until its disbandment in 1902. American naval forces operated by sending landing parties ashore and by providing them with naval gunfire support. From 1899 to 1902,

1782-679: The Asiatic Squadron slowly fought their way to take control of Tientsin away from the Boxers in order to relieve the Siege of the International Legations at Peking . In 1902, the Asiatic Squadron was upgraded in status, becoming the United States Asiatic Fleet . Except for a period from early 1907 until 28 January 1910 when it was downgraded to the status of First Squadron, United States Pacific Fleet ,

1848-750: The Filipino rebel Emilio Aguinaldo in March 1901 at Palawan Island . Later the gunboat USS  Isla de Luzon supported the operation which led to the capture of the Filipino general Vicente Lukbán on Samar in November 1901. During the Boxer Rebellion , the Asiatic Squadron participated in the China Relief Expedition in 1900. At the time, Peking was home to many foreigners who were under siege by Boxer rebels. An international force including U.S. Marines and U.S. Navy sailors of

1914-729: The German-mined River Scheldt by the British to utilize the port of Antwerp . Roberts and Abercrombie were to form part of the British East Indies Fleet in support of Operation Mailfist , the planned liberation of Singapore in late 1945, which was cancelled following the Japanese surrender. The former Italian WWI monitor Faa di Bruno had been redesignated as floating battery by the beginning of WW2, in which role she continued to play until

1980-682: The U.S. Marine Corps was also using the M49 105 mm howitzer, there was a shortage, and only 8 Monitor (H) versions could be procured for the brown-water navy. As fielded, the 24 monitors of the U.S. Navy in Vietnam averaged about 10 tons of armor, were about 60 feet (18 m) long, had two screws, were powered by two 64NH9 diesel engines, 8.5 knots (15.7 km/h; 9.8 mph) (maximum speed), 17.5 feet (5.3 m) wide, 3.5 feet (1.1 m) draft, and were normally manned by 11 crewmen. When South Vietnam fell on 30 April 1975, all monitors fell into

2046-617: The United States Navy reflected a ship-to-ship combat role in their designs. However, fortification bombardment was another critical role that the early monitors played, though one that these early designs were much less capable in performing. Three months after the Battle of Hampton Roads, John Ericsson took his design to his native Sweden, and in 1865 the first Swedish monitor was built at Motala Warf in Norrköping , taking

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2112-532: The allies were not gaining success in the Mekong Delta region. A stronger naval force was needed, one that was heavily armored, and heavily gunned. The U.S. Navy's MRF initially consisted of River Assault Flotilla One , under Program 4 in 1967, and consisted of four River Assault Divisions : RAD-91 which contained 3 Monitors ; RAD-92 contained 2 Monitors; RAD-111 had 3 Monitors; and RAD-112 operated 2 Monitors. These "river battleships", as they were known by

2178-480: The beam and with an 11-foot (3 m) mean draught carrying two 15-inch (381 mm) guns. The Brazilian Navy presently operates the last true "monitor" as part of their inland waterway force, Parnaíba . The Vietnam War was the U.S. Navy's second riverine war, after the American Civil War. On 18 December 1965, the U.S. Navy, for the second time in a hundred years, authorized the reactivation of

2244-422: The boat a smaller and therefore harder target for gunfire. At the end of the American Civil War, the U.S. Navy Casco -class monitors had large ballast tanks that allowed the vessels to partially submerge during battle. This idea was carried further with the concept of the Royal Navy's R class of submarine gunboats. The British M-class submarines were initially designed for shore bombardment, but their purpose

2310-646: The capitulation of Italy. She was then captured by the Germans and served as monitor Biber in Genoa, until the German surrender. She was scrapped after the war. The German, Yugoslav, Croatian and Romanian navies all operated river monitors on the Danube, all of which saw combat during the war. The Soviet Union built many monitors before World War II, and used them mostly on rivers and lakes. After experiences during WWI,

2376-521: The construction of river monitors to patrol its internal river systems such as the Danube and its tributaries. These vessels were among the first to fire on Serbian territory at the start of the First World War, and took part in the bombardment of Belgrade , as well as other Balkan campaigns against Serbia and Romania. At the end of the war, the surviving vessels were parceled out to the navies of

2442-438: The cost and weight of the armour required for protection, and in heavy weather the sea could wash over the deck rather than heeling the ship over. Attempts were made to fit monitors with sails, but the provision of masts interfered with the turrets' ability to operate in a 360-degree arc of fire and the weight of masts and sails aloft made the ships less stable. One ship, HMS  Captain , which combined turret and sails with

2508-521: The enemy's hands; leaving only one survivor, a training monitor, that never left the US. "Training" monitor #C-18 is on display, along with one Swift Boat and one PBR at the U.S. Naval Amphibious Base in Coronado, California . The monitor, by proving the efficacy of turrets over fixed guns, played a part in development of the dreadnought battleship from the ironclad . As a shallow draft vessel it also led to

2574-533: The engineer's name. She was followed by 14 more monitors. One of them, Kanonbåten Sölve , served until 1922 and is today preserved at the Maritiman marine museum in Gothenburg . Ericsson and others experimented greatly during the years of the American Civil War. Vessels constructed included a triple-turreted monitor , a class of paddlewheel-propelled ironclads, a class of semi-submersible monitors, and

2640-466: The extent and convenience of her interior accommodations. There is a spacious ward-room, nine or ten feet in height, besides a private cabin for the commander, and sleeping accommodations on an ample scale; the whole well lighted and ventilated, though beneath the surface of the water... It was like finding a palace, with all its conveniences, under the sea. The inaccessibility, the apparent impregnability, of this submerged iron fortress are most satisfactory;

2706-739: The fate of the merchant ship SS General Sherman , establish trade relations, and receive an assurance from the Joseon government that shipwrecked American sailors would be safely treated should they become stranded in Korea. On 1 June 1871, while Rear Admiral Rodgers was negotiating in Inchon , one of the Selee River forts opened fire on Palos as she traversed the Gangwha Straits. In the following engagement , Palos and Monocacy bombarded

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2772-537: The fort until it was silenced and on 10 June 1871, the expedition attacked in force. Five of the six hostile forts were captured and destroyed, over 200 Koreans were killed and dozens of cannons were captured. Although the Americans won a military victory, the Koreans refused to sign a trade treaty until 1882. On 27 April 1898, the squadron, composed of the protected cruisers USS  Olympia (the flagship of

2838-473: The hulls quickly designed and built in "cheap and cheerful" fashion. They were broad beamed for stability (beam was about 1/3 of the overall length) which together with a lack of emphasis on speed made them extremely slow, and they were not suitable for naval combat or any sort of work on the high seas. Monitors of the Royal Navy played a part in consolidating the left wing of the Western Front during

2904-507: The increasing use of the carrier battle group , or ad hoc task forces , composed of whichever ships were available for a particular operation. As warships have grown larger, the term squadron has gradually replaced the term flotilla for formations of destroyers , frigates and submarines in many navies. Monitor (ship) A monitor is a relatively small warship that is neither fast nor strongly armored but carries disproportionately large guns. They were used by some navies from

2970-649: The land battle was lost, the crew of the Manco Capac scuttled her to prevent capture. Over the years, both Chile and Peru came to venerate the ship and the officers from both sides that died on her deck, either commanding her or boarding her, as national heroes. Huáscar is currently commissioned in the Chilean Navy, has been restored to a near-original condition and, as a museum ship , is open to visitors at its berth in Talcahuano . In an effort to produce

3036-671: The men, operated in conjunction with the CCB (Command Control Boat—also a monitor), ATCs Armored Troop Carrier (ATC) and the Assault Support Patrol Boats (ASPBs) which were also assigned to each RAD. Vietnam Monitors were originally converted from World War II 56-foot (17 m) long all-steel Landing Craft Mechanized (LCM) Mark 6s. They were constructed under two phases: Programs 4 and 5. Under Program 4, 10 Monitors were armed with one 40 mm cannon and then fielded. Program 5 Monitors would correct any deficiencies from

3102-516: The monitors of the 19th century, though they shared the characteristics of poor seaworthiness, shallow draft and heavy armament in turrets. The first class, the Humber class , had been laid down as large river gunboats for the Brazilian navy. Later monitor classes were equally makeshift; they were often designed for carrying whatever spare guns were available from ships scrapped or never built, with

3168-617: The nearby island where they made camp. Charleston ' s launch was sent out for help and, after ten days of being marooned , the American sailors were rescued by the gunboat USS  Helena . On 7 November 1899, Helena bombarded San Fabian in Lingayen Gulf and covered the landing of 2,500 American troops there. Asiatic Squadron gunboats took part in the Battle of Mabitac in June 1900, where they bombarded Filipino forces while U.S. Army troops attacked their fortifications. In

3234-426: The new state of Yugoslavia and Romania as war prizes. Several would see action in World War II as well. The Italian Navy also constructed some monitors including the Faa di Bruno , using the main gun barrels for the cancelled Francesco Caracciolo-class battleships . The smaller Royal Navy monitors were mostly scrapped following World War I, though Erebus and Terror survived to fight in World War II. When

3300-428: The officers and crew get down through a little hole in the deck, hermetically seal themselves, and go below... A storm of cannon-shot damages them no more than a handful of dried peas. We saw the shot-marks made by the great artillery of the Merrimack on the outer casing of the iron tower...with no corresponding bulge on the interior surface. In fact, the thing looked altogether too safe...the circumvolutory movement of

3366-407: The previous vessels, and were fielded as the Monitor (H) 105 mm (Howitzer) and the Monitor (F) (Flamethrower). The Program 4 monitors mounted their single barrel 40 mm cannon in a Mk 52 turret; while the Program 5 monitors mounted their 105 mm cannon in a T172 turret, and the six flamethrowers were mounted in M8 cupola turrets (one on each side of the vessel's 40 mm turret). Because

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3432-407: The protected cruisers Charleston , and the gunboats Concord , USS  Callao , and Laguna de Bay bombarded Filipino positions during the Battle of Caloocan . Over 300 Filipinos were killed in action and three times as many wounded, with many of the casualties attributed to accurate naval gunfire. USS Petrel and USS Boston shelled Panay Island on 11 February 1899, and, on 22 February 1899,

3498-445: The requirement for shore support returned, two large new Roberts -class monitors, Roberts and Abercrombie , were constructed and fitted with 15-inch (380 mm) guns from older battleships . Royal Navy monitors saw service in the Mediterranean in support of the British Eighth Army 's desert and Italian campaigns. They were part of the offshore bombardment for the Invasion of Normandy in 1944. They were also used to clear

3564-459: The several classes of monitor varied greatly. Those of the Abercrombie class were 320 feet (98 m) by 90 feet (27 m) in the beam and drew 9 feet (2.7 m) compared to the M29 -class monitors of 1915 that were only 170 feet (52 m) long, and the Erebus class of 1916, which were 405 feet (123 m) long. The largest monitors carried the heaviest guns. By this point the United States Navy had largely stopped using monitors. Only

3630-422: The squadron ' s commander, Commodore George Dewey ), USS  Baltimore , USS  Raleigh , and USS  Boston , the gunboats USS  Petrel and USS  Concord , and the United States Revenue Cutter Service cutter USS  McCulloch , sailed from Mirs Bay , China, to the Philippine Islands to participate in the Spanish–American War . In the Battle of Manila Bay on 1 May 1898,

3696-401: The squadron conducted several missions against the Filipinos. Dewey ' s squadron engaged in naval operation against the Filipinos during and after the 1898 Battle of Manila against the Spanish. At the beginning of the Philippine–American War in February 1899, several American warships supported the occupation of the Philippine Islands. At the same time, the monitor USS  Monadnock ,

3762-461: The squadron destroyed the Spanish fleet in the Philippines, and effectively took control of Manila Bay . Eight Spanish ships were sunk and over 150 killed while the Americans suffered only slight damage. Vessels of the squadron also fought the Spanish in the battle to capture Manila . Naval gunfire on the Spaniards' left flank helped American troops take the city without severe losses. The Philippines became an American possession. On 20 June 1898,

3828-458: The stability problems arising from the heavy turret mounted high in monitors, their hulls were designed to reduce other top weight. After Ericsson's ships, monitors developed the trunk deck design as the upper deck had to be heavily armoured against plunging shells. Because of the weight high in the hull, its breadth was minimized, giving rise to a vessel broad-beamed at the waterline, but with a narrow upper deck. The term for this sort of construction

3894-427: The tower, the quick thrusting forth of the immense guns to deliver their ponderous missiles, and then the immediate recoil, and the security behind the closed port-holes. The Battle of Hampton Roads (March 1862), between Monitor and CSS  Virginia , was the first engagement between ironclad vessels. Several such battles took place during the course of the American Civil War, and the dozens of monitors built for

3960-446: The town and sent men ashore to fight on the ground. Again the Filipinos retreated and set several buildings on fire as they went. In June 1899, American gunboats silenced an artillery piece during the Battle of Zapote River , which ended with an American victory. In the summer of 1899, American gunboats started patrolling Subic Bay . During a routine patrol, the collier USS  Zafiro entered Subic Bay and came under fire from

4026-401: The two warships bombarded the fort there and sent United States Marines and sailors ashore. Only minor skirmishing occurred on land because the Filipinos retreated and burned the town as they left. On 7 May 1899, Laguna de Bay and another gunboat bombarded Sexmoan and routed the Filipinos there. Later that day, the gunboats fought at Guagua , where they bombarded Filipino positions in

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4092-493: Was HMVS  Cerberus , built between 1868 and 1870. She was later sunk and used as a breakwater near Melbourne , Australia and is still visible there, as her upper works project from the water. Monitors were used frequently during the Spanish–American War in 1898. Notable United States Navy monitors which fought in the war were USS  Amphitrite , USS  Puritan , USS  Monterey , and USS  Terror . These four monitors fought at battles or campaigns such as

4158-409: Was tumblehome . Ships which were far narrower at the deck than the waterline were said to have a "pronounced tumblehome". By analogy, nineteenth century railway coaches with clerestory roofs to accommodate ventilators and lamps above the heads of standing passengers in the centre while lower to the sides where passengers were seated were called monitors or monitor cars in the U.S.; the raised part of

4224-429: Was a platform of iron, so nearly on a level with the water that the swash of the waves broke over it, under the impulse of a very moderate breeze; and on this platform was raised a circular structure, likewise of iron, and rather broad and capacious, but of no great height. It could not be called a vessel at all; it was a machine...it looked like a gigantic rat-trap. It was ugly, questionable, suspicious...devilish; for this

4290-420: Was changed to attacking enemy merchant vessels as their 12-inch (305 mm) gun would be more effective at long range than a torpedo against a moving target. Only one, HMS  M1 , entered service before the end of World War 1; she was lost in the English Channel after the war in 1925 after being accidentally rammed while submerged: her gun came free of its mount and she was completely flooded. To overcome

4356-400: Was the new war-fiend, destined...to annihilate whole navies and batter down old supremacies. The wooden walls of Old England cease to exist...now that the Monitor comes smoking into view; while the billows dash over what seems her deck, and storms bury even her turret in green water, as she burrows and snorts along, oftener under the surface than above... Going on board, we were surprised at

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